Aid workers killed in Gaza

@HiramHolliday said in #9:
> Hamas started it....
Yes. But what point do you want to make?

This cannot justify other crimes, like killing aid workers and from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war:

Since the start of the Israeli operation, more than 33,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, including over 14,000 children and 9,000 women. Several thousand more are missing and presumed trapped under rubble. Nearly all of the strip's 2.3 million population has been internally displaced. Israel's tightened blockade and attacks on infrastructure have led to a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, including a collapse of the healthcare system and an ongoing famine. By early 2024, Israeli forces had destroyed more than half of Gaza's houses, hundreds of cultural landmarks, and dozens of cemeteries.

Sounds like the combination of Holodomor and Bombing of Dresden to me.

Collateral damage.

@HiramHolliday said in #32:
> Collateral damage.
Yeah, starving an entier population and shooting civilians with drones tanks and rifles (on perpous) is definitely collateral damage /s

Their war..not ours..My forefathers sacrificed themselves, so that I could live free..Let them get on with it.

Everyone can have their own "book." We can't just assume that our own "book" is correct. We must argue for our "book," and listen to the counter-arguments with real objectivity. No matter how fashionable our "book" is.

The German people put Hitler in power. Hitler caused innocents to die. Hitler HAD to be stopped. Does anybody really think otherwise? Could Hitler have been stopped without the possibility of civilian casualties? Well? We all know the answer.

Nevertheless, America DID try to contain its bombing to strategic sites, and even risked MORE of its own pilots dying by conducting many daylight raids (as opposed to night raids), in order to MORE ACCURATELY bomb strategic sites. Look it up. I'm not guessing.

Nevertheless, as the war dragged on, and after the Germans and Japanese had both shown themselves willing to bomb cities or otherwise murder large numbers of civilians (see, for example, the bombing of London or the slaughter in Manchuria), the gloves came off from both Britain and America -- NEITHER of whom struck the first blow.

And, sadly, Tokyo and Dresden bore the burden.

Israel has been more restrained than either Britain or America were in the heat of World War II. Israel obviously isn't TRYING to kill international aid workers. But military science and technology aren't perfect. In every single war, "friendly fire" kills even one's OWN troops. War is an ugly mess.

Can Israel let Hamas continue to rule? That's the question. If they can't, what are they supposed to do? I mean, REALLY -- no dodging -- what are they supposed to do?

October 7 was, to Israel, like SEVERAL 911s were to America. Israel didn't lose hardened troops that day, it lost many, many women and children.

Can that be allowed to happen again? That's another question. It's not a question that many are willing to answer clearly.

As I understand it, there was a cease fire already in effect last October 7. Did it help?

@mortmann said in #31:
> Yes. But what point do you want to make?
>
> This cannot justify other crimes, like killing aid workers and from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war:
> [...]

That's what I had in mind when I pointed out what would be the answer given by families of the victims. And someone did not too subtly ask why the victims were there???

Even IDF admitted that. FGS!

> In an unusually swift four-day investigation, it concluded that a charity worker ***** carrying a bag was mistaken for a man holding a gun *****.

>Israel's defence chief said Wednesday a strike that killed seven aid workers in Gaza was a ***** "grave mistake" *****, after the deaths prompted a chorus of international outrage.
>
>***** "This incident was a grave mistake," ***** IDF chief Herzi Halevi said in a video message after the strike that hit a World Central Kitchen (WCK) convoy delivering aid on Monday.
>
>"It shouldn't have happened," Halevi said, as he ***** blamed the strike on a nightime "misidentification" *****.

@Noflaps said in #17:
> I remember Israel being attacked, repeatedly, starting when I was much younger.
>
> In 1970, Israeli children died when their school bus was attacked.
>
> Israel was attacked in its first week. Don't believe me about any of this -- check for yourself.
>
> History is sometimes unfashionable.
>
> Indeed, October of last year already seems to be turning into barely remembered history, for some.

Have you ever gotten informations about what happened to Palestiniens in the meantime?

Also, try to take the time to get informations about what happened since the beginning 1948, even go back until 2000 years ago for a better picture.

Did you hear about the 800 hectares last week? It's not a way to make new friends out there. It's not a secret anymore, Israeli leaders want all Palestiniens to leave Isreal; a few representatives have publicly told it.

There are 2 sides of the coin in that story. Both sides hate people on the other side. Apparently, it's gonna be hatred until the end of time.

I can't sadly see no way for peace out there.

@Noflaps said in #35:
> Everyone can have their own "book." We can't just assume that our own "book" is correct. We must argue for our "book," and listen to the counter-arguments with real objectivity. No matter how fashionable our "book" is.
>

A quick exercise, I just took the top three articles from Reuters and the Associated Press, this is the result:

- Israel fires two officers after finding grave errors in strike on aid workers (Reuters)
- Biden urges Egypt, Qatar to press Hamas on hostage deal ahead of weekend talks (Reuters)
- Six months into Gaza war, Israel faces deepening isolation (Reuters)
www.reuters.com/world/israel-hamas/

- After six months of war, Israel’s isolation grows with no end in sight (AP)
- Biden tells Israel’s Netanyahu future US support for war depends on new steps to protect civilians (AP)
- Trump says Israel has to get war in Gaza over ‘fast’ and warns it is ‘losing the PR war’ (AP)
apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war

It's not about my "book". It's pretty much basic human decency to question Israel's war crimes in Gaza at this point.

> The German people put Hitler in power. Hitler caused innocents to die. Hitler HAD to be stopped. Does anybody really think otherwise? Could Hitler have been stopped without the possibility of civilian casualties? Well? We all know the answer.
>
> Nevertheless, America DID try to contain its bombing to strategic sites, and even risked MORE of its own pilots dying by conducting many daylight raids (as opposed to night raids), in order to MORE ACCURATELY bomb strategic sites. Look it up. I'm not guessing.
>
> Nevertheless, as the war dragged on, and after the Germans and Japanese had both shown themselves willing to bomb cities or otherwise murder large numbers of civilians (see, for example, the bombing of London or the slaughter in Manchuria), the gloves came off from both Britain and America -- NEITHER of whom struck the first blow.
>
> And, sadly, Tokyo and Dresden bore the burden.
>
> Israel has been more restrained than either Britain or America were in the heat of World War II. Israel obviously isn't TRYING to kill international aid workers. But military science and technology aren't perfect. In every single war, "friendly fire" kills even one's OWN troops. War is an ugly mess.
>

What has this do with this topic? I don't understand why WWII pops up here. Maybe you are looking for a way to dilute Israeli crimes in Gaza by mentioning even greater crimes? Palestinians had literally nothing to do with the Holocaust.

> Can Israel let Hamas continue to rule? That's the question. If they can't, what are they supposed to do? I mean, REALLY -- no dodging -- what are they supposed to do?
>

You are presenting Israel as a victim, which is at best a distorted view of reality.

From 2008 to 2023 (before Israel's invasion of Gaza):

- 6,407 Palestinians (mostly civilians) were killed
- 308 Israelis (mostly civilians) were killed

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

For decades, Israel has been far, far more lethal to Palestinian civilians than the other way around.

The West Bank has been governed for many years by the moderate Fatah that poses no danger to Israel, yet they are being stamped upon at this very moment by the IDF and the settlers.

Since you asked, let me do the same the other way around: what are the Palestinians supposed to do?

> October 7 was, to Israel, like SEVERAL 911s were to America. Israel didn't lose hardened troops that day, it lost many, many women and children.
>

What do you mean? Let's get some facts straight.

The 9/11 terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda killed almost 3,000 civilians.

The October 7th terrorist attack by Hamas killed 1.143 Isrelis, 767 of them civilians, 36 of them children.

The terrorist retaliation and subsequent genocide by Israel in Gaza has killed so far 33.000 Palestinians, including thousands of women and children, since you mention that point.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war

So whatever you are trying to say, it's just not true. October 7th killed several times less than 9/11, and hundreds of times less children than Israeli atrocities in Gaza.

Please note I am in no way defending Hamas' atrocities during October 7th, just setting the facts straight.

> Can that be allowed to happen again? That's another question. It's not a question that many are willing to answer clearly.
>
> As I understand it, there was a cease fire already in effect last October 7. Did it help?

Six months into this "war" (not a war really since there no battles. Slaughter would be a better word), there is no clarity at all than Israel was safer as before. In fact, it probably less safe than before.

And a genocide is certainly not an acceptable response. Everybody can see now that Israel is trying to starve to death all of Gaza, not just Hamas.

My conclusion: you must be either misinformed about what is happening right now in Gaza, or desensitized, or maybe you just hate Palestinians for some obscure reason we don't know.

God bless the crew of Enola Gay.

Somehow, what I said didn't get digested fully: Israel was attacked in the FIRST WEEK that Israel existed. What horrible things had Israel done then? To justify attacking Israel? What is the excuse for that?

Israel has been attacked over, and over, and over for DECADES. Can you imagine how you'd feel if your next-door neighbors attacked you over and over and over for decades, and your other neighbors gave excuses for that and told you to just shrug it off?

October 7 apparently felt like the "last straw" and they decided that the current leadership (Hamas) has to go. Or should they endure even more such attacks? How many more 911s or Pearl Harbors should Israel endure? Anybody want to suggest a number?

By the way, Israel's population is FAR LESS than the population of the United States. You know that, right? Well please think about that for a minute. As a PERCENTAGE OF THEIR POPULATION October 7 was several times more lethal for Israel than Pearl Harbor or even 911 were for America. That's the point. Is it now more obvious?

This didn't have to happen. But somebody decided it was a good idea to attack Israel's women and kids and kill hundreds of them. In retrospect, was it?

I hope this can end. Suggesting that I "hate Palestinians" is nonsensical and mere avoidance. As most do, I hate to see innocents killed, of any nationality. But Israel isn't trying to kill civilians. As one of the posters above admitted, Israeli officers, themselves, refer to the killing of civilians as a "grave mistake." Focus on the word "mistake." It indicates a LACK of intention to kill civilians.

Unfortunately, however, Hamas is located in urban areas. How does one combat an enemy that is located among civilians, while putting those civilians at no risk whatsoever? Anybody have any suggestions? It would be great if somebody could come up with some sound suggestions.